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Why Anti-Choicers Scare Me

Jan 30, 2008
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This is the conversation I had tonight with a fanatical far-right anti-choicer who sent me the facebook message I quoted earlier this week. You will notice several of the very popular anti-choice themes: capital punishment, oppression of women, mistrust of women/paternalism, religious zealotry, and being dumb enough to argue a medical student about medical facts. He obviously doesn't know that I am far superior in intelligence to him--or he never would have started with me. Le sigh. I just don't know how they live with themselves.

May the babies you "save" be athiest, gay, democrats!
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culpfiction76: hi
Lacey: hi
culpfiction76: how are you?
Lacey: Stressed out and ready for the weekend
culpfiction76: I see
culpfiction76: did you get my facebook message?
Lacey: yes

culpfiction76: have you really changed that much?
culpfiction76: I was shocked
Lacey: Yeah, I came to my senses and realized it was no longer in my best interest to be a social conservative, particularly to be anti-choice. Upon thinking for myself, I realized I'm actually quite libertarian, but with more liberal leanings.

culpfiction76: :-(
culpfiction76: I remember one time I mentioned something about how Ike Skelton wasn't so bad, and you'd like to have a fit
Lacey: It just didn't make sense to me that such a conservative district would maintain a democrat in office.
culpfiction76: well he's one of the 2 or 3 most conservative dems in the house
culpfiction76: I'd likely vote for him if I was in his district honestly'
Lacey: And I really liked the person who was running on the Republican ticket for our district that year

culpfiction76: you don't like abortion do you?
Lacey: No one "likes abortion"
Lacey: But I am pro-choice, from sex education on up to the legal limits of the procedure.
culpfiction76: oh goodness

Lacey: As far as my personal opinion, I don't know if I could ever have one, but women absolutely have a right to determine their reproductive destinies.
culpfiction76: like hell they do
culpfiction76: well scratch that
culpfiction76: they do, but it ends when they create a human being

culpfiction76: because at that point the exercise of that right involves the slaughter of an innocent child
Lacey: The definition of the beginning of human life is the most ambiguous opinion in the world.
Lacey: And it brings in religion >99% of the time for anti-choicers.
culpfiction76: only to democrats...because the ambiguity suits their sick agenda
Lacey: Not necessarily. Let's not generalize here.
culpfiction76: Fine...pro-abortion democrats

Lacey: Pro-abortion is a gross misinterpretation of the pro-choice movement and of the goals of pro-choice activists.
culpfiction76: not even remotely
Lacey: No one ever WANTS to have an abortion, and pro-choicers would be happy if another abortion was never performed again.
Lacey: It's actually the goal of our activism.
Lacey: We want abortion providers to have less to do, because of a lack of unwanted pregnancy.
culpfiction76: that's so disingenuous.

Lacey: But anti-choice legislation and absitnence-only sex education, coupled with crippling access to birth control, emergency contraception, and medically accurate information about sexuality robs many people of their ability to be proactive about their reproductive lives.
culpfiction76: pro-choice is a lie. It's a meaningless term applied because stating what you're actually for establishes very clearly the barbarity of the proposition on its face.
Lacey: Pro-life is a lie.
Lacey: The "life" you want to save is an indistinguishable bundle of cells.
Lacey: The lives you disregard are those of the mother, any of her existing children, and her family members.

Lacey: over 10% of all conceptions end before a woman would even take a positive pregnancy test
culpfiction76: How do I disregard those lives? I disregard their convenience, perhaps, which the mother by all rights has forfeited.
Lacey: Just the mother?
Lacey: Now you're just oppressing women because they happen to be the child-bearers.
culpfiction76: You're oppressing men.

Lacey: And they (women) are almost uniformly the burdened party when the "parents" are not together.
culpfiction76: Why doesn't the father get a choice in the matter?
Lacey: There is no way in hell I am oppressing men.
culpfiction76: You're stripping his rights as a father just because he's NOT the child-bearer
Lacey: He can have an opinion just like anyone else.
Lacey: The dynamics of the couple are their own issue--but he does not have the onus of being the decisional authority.
culpfiction76: and do absolutely nothing about that opinion if the mothers' dissents.

Lacey: If you're blaming the mother for getting pregnant and forfeiting her right to choose, shouldn't the same principle apply to the father (who was ALSO present at the conception)? Shouldn't he lose all of his human rights because he had sex, too?
culpfiction76: yes
culpfiction76: Thus neither of them should be legally allowed to murder their child
culpfiction76: easy

Lacey: It's not murder
Lacey: It's not alive
culpfiction76: that's manifestly false
Lacey: How so?
Lacey: Explain to me how a zygote is alive.
culpfiction76: For one, any collection of cells or organ in your body is alive. A fetus in particular has its own separate life and identity
culpfiction76: it has its own heartbeat at 18 days from conception in many cases from what I understand.
Lacey: So, we shouldn't excise tumors because they're living cells with a unique genome?
Lacey: Is that murder too?
Lacey: They develop their own circulatory systems.
culpfiction76: no. The difference is that, left unmolested, those will not grow into a baby, then a child, then an adult, just like you and me.

Lacey: And you cannot legislate against abortion because it is a direct act of advocating a single religion over all others--which I'm pretty sure is not okay in the United States, based on that pesky Bill of Rights you law kids should be reading about.
culpfiction76: absolute bullcrap
Lacey: Um, I think not.
culpfiction76: That's like saying you can't legislate against robbery or murder for the same reason
culpfiction76: just a hollow and ridiculous argument
culpfiction76: which I wish you guys would drop just in the interests of saving a lot of needlessly wasted time
Lacey: I wish you guys would find something better to think about than controlling women.
culpfiction76: I wish you would think of something better to do than promoting the mass slaughter of the most innocent among us in the name of some abstract and contrived women's right.

Lacey: You, being a white, college educated male, will never understand the forces at work against women, even before we get pregnant.
Lacey: They're not people.
Lacey: You will never convince me of that.
Lacey: I do not advocate abortion.

culpfiction76: Why do you not advocate it?
Lacey: I advocate that people be allowed to make their own decisions about their lives.
Lacey: I am just as happy for the women who keep their babies, those who find adoptive parents, and I sympathize for the women who face the most difficult decision of termination.
Lacey: But it is not my role to tell anyone what to do with their own bodies.
Lacey: And neither of us are going to convince the other that we are right.
Lacey: I advocate for the prevention of unplanned pregnancy above all other things.
Lacey: I advocate, like many of your peers, delayed onset of sexual activity.
Lacey: But I am also realistic enough to understand that mistakes are made.

culpfiction76: and in most realms, people must live with their mistake.
Lacey: And that punishing two or more lives because of those mistakes is wrong.
culpfiction76: but in this, one of the most important areas, assumption of consequences is set aside for the sake of death
Lacey: Only if you define a fertilized egg to a 24 week fetus a life.
Lacey: which only an individual person can do.

Lacey: Those who consider that a life will not have an abortion. Which is fine.
Lacey: Those who do not, will make their decision based on other criteria.
culpfiction76: Which, if it turns out that empirically it is a life, is murder, without any qualification
Lacey: Only by way of your definition.
culpfiction76: and history will define you as monsters

Lacey: God, if I'm not mistaken, has given mankind conscience and free will.
culpfiction76: yes...and by his grace, a state to check that free will where it egregiously infringes on that of others
Lacey: And, even in your sacred Catholic texts, conscience of the individual is the greatest authority for decision making and culpability. (Even over that of the Pope!)
culpfiction76: Hm
culpfiction76: You may be forgetting a certain factor by the name of God
Lacey: There is no free will in the embryo
culpfiction76: And don't mistake Catholics for relativists.
culpfiction76: We believe there is a right and a wrong
Lacey: As do I
Lacey: Our definitions are just grossly different.
culpfiction76: and thus that which is wrong is always wrong, regardless of what an individual may believe or wish to beleive

culpfiction76: Let me put it to you this way
Lacey: Oh you're going to dumb it down for me... that's rich!!
culpfiction76: Do you believe there is ever a situation (let's set aside cases of brain-dead births and that sort of thing for these purposes) in which abortion serves the greater good?
culpfiction76: That there is ever greater utility in it.
Lacey: Greater than carrying pregnancy to term, giving birth, etc?
culpfiction76: yes
Lacey: and we're only talking about conceptions that would be born "normal" and viable?
culpfiction76: yeah let's limit it to that for now
Lacey: Yes I do. (I just wanted to make sure I understood the question)
Lacey: It saves your people tax dollars so they can give them back to the rich folk.
culpfiction76: but it takes away a potential taxpayer
culpfiction76: and an economic analysis is only one consideration
Lacey: and a potential solder.

culpfiction76: If you truly believe that a human life is worth less than the amount of tax money that may be required to provide for it, that's your unfortunate and I think eccentric opinion, I suppose.
Lacey: You keep forgetting that my definition of human life is not the same as yours.
Lacey: Which is what the entire argument is based upon.
culpfiction76: I'm talking about the hypothetical fetus carried to term and born
culpfiction76: when it might otherwise have been aborted
Lacey: But it only applies if it happens.
culpfiction76: no it doesn't
culpfiction76: we're making the utilitarian argument based on the utility of either having an abortion prior to birth or in carrying it to term
culpfiction76: so whether it's a life at that point already is irrelevant

Lacey: I think it's based on the circumstances of the involved parties
Lacey: If it means they're sinking lower into poverty and will not be able to adequately feed/clothe/shelter themselves and any existing children or other dependents, it is absolutely more useful to abort a pregnancy.
culpfiction76: Ok pause right there
Lacey: But upon completion of the procedure all women should be offered long term birth control to prevent repeat scenarios
culpfiction76: Can we agree that adoption is always an alternative to letting the child deepen one's poverty?
Lacey: No
Lacey: Adoption is great
Lacey: if you can guarantee timely and secure placement with a parent
culpfiction76: irelevant for this part of the discussion
Lacey: Which is absolutely not the case

culpfiction76: You raised an argument for the parents' perspective
Lacey: You can't selectively make inconvenient facts irrelevant!!
culpfiction76: No we can address it in turn
culpfiction76: but it's irrelevant to theparticular point being discussed
culpfiction76: If a mother will be irreparably harmed economically by keeping a baby she's carried to term, giving that child up for adoption is a viable alternative in every case, yes?
Lacey: In terms of immediate cessation of the problem, I think it would apply to most cases. It effectively makes the baby "disappear" from her life.
Lacey: So if we
Lacey: *if we're only going for parental perspective...

culpfiction76: Okay. So the maximum required utility cost for the mother is 9 months of pregnancy, right?
culpfiction76: If she chooses to invest more than that, it's because obviously she sees additional utility in doing so.
Lacey: And all that's involved with those 9 months.
culpfiction76: Ok...I think we have an accord on that then
Lacey: Discrimination, loss of productivity/wages for prenatal care, increased health care costs, possible health complications...
culpfiction76: Ok let's address those concerns then

culpfiction76: Let's remember that our analysis begins after conception.
culpfiction76: Now I'm not a doctor...but I believe the health risks of abortion are at least equivalent to that of a full-term pregnancy.
culpfiction76: Would you take issue with that statement?
Lacey: Yes I would.
Lacey: Surgical abortion (at the present standard of care reached in the 80s after Roe v. Wade) is one of the safest surgical procedures anyone can have.
culpfiction76: Ok. Since I doubt either of us have the relevant facts handy to prove that one way or another, let's leave that open as a question of fact.
culpfiction76: I've heard of a lot of women receiving nerve damage, inadvertant sterility, and death from legal abortions even in very recent times.
culpfiction76: But we'll consult the stats on that later if necessary
Lacey: Later is better than right now.

culpfiction76: Okay so that leaves discrimination, real economic loss during pregnancy, and health costs.
culpfiction76: I'll concede those all as at least potential unmitigated utility costs.
Lacey: remembering that low-income and uninsured women are more likely to face unplanned pregnancy because of prohibitive cost of birth control, and would face the highest costs related to an unplanned pregnancy.
Lacey: ...which is anywhere from 6,000-12,000 dollars, depending on delivery style, location, and of course, insurance coverage.
culpfiction76: Okay
culpfiction76: So you've got significant economic loss (which could be mitigated by bankruptcy protection if necessary) as the gross utility cost.
culpfiction76: and also possible health risks
culpfiction76: adequate summary?
Lacey: I suppose it's acceptable for now.
culpfiction76: ok

culpfiction76: And the positive utility would be essentially the birth of a human being
culpfiction76: which includes all the potentials and liabilities inherent in such a birth
Lacey: which are infinite (in either direction) and unknown at the time of birth
Lacey: But you cannot argue based on that--prevention of a future that is not a measurable entity
culpfiction76: well just like the health concern debate, you'd have to look at stats
Lacey: stats about what? What proportion of people die before each milestone is reached?
Lacey: How many have accidental deaths?
Lacey: How many babies grow up to be criminals, drug addicts, antisocials, terrorists?
culpfiction76: right
Lacey: Interesting thought.

culpfiction76: also economic concerns...that child's potential to reproduce
culpfiction76: and the child's potential to be something good as opposed to a criminal etc
Lacey: okay...
culpfiction76: I submit that the vast majority of children would amount to enough in his or her life to make up the medical costs inherent in the birth
Lacey: But each birth isn't of "the vast majority of children"
Lacey: I think if the child is wanted, you are absolutely correct.

Lacey: That's why we reproduce.
Lacey: because we are willing to risk our lives (literally) with that expectation for our wanted children--that they will "amount to enough" to counterbalance the risks and cost associated with their birth.
culpfiction76: well even a child born into ideal circumstance can fail to live up to his birth costs
Lacey: I agree
Lacey: But both the costs and the "worth" of the child are determined on a highly sensitive individual basis (i.e., a child with Down Syndrome).
culpfiction76: right

culpfiction76: and so why do you feel that one woman should have absolute power to snuff out both the utilities and the liabilities when they ultimately affect many individual people and society at large?
Lacey: Because I trust her. I trust that her decision will be the best one for herself, her family, and HER FUTURE, which was not a part of this particular argument.
Lacey: The impact on society is minimal at the very most.
Lacey: She, as an individual with decision-making capacity and competence as a human being, is autonomous to make decisions about her own medical care.

culpfiction76: Well I hope you at least see how we can legislate this from a social utility perspective putting value on various competing concerns, without legislating religious values (which I think is completely fine in its own right, btw)
Lacey: Even if you attempt to do it that way, it is ineffective.
Lacey: Because if you banned abortion, illegal procedures would still occur, tipping the "liabilities" side of the scale due to a drastic increase in death, infections, loss of reproductive ability, and other morbidities/costs

culpfiction76: that's why you impose the death penalty for those convicted of committing an abortion
culpfiction76: I don't think you'd find too many people risking it
Lacey: wow--so..... kill 2 people for the price of one?
culpfiction76: same thing they do to murderers, yeah
culpfiction76: deterrence
culpfiction76: and retributivism

Lacey: So you want the death penalty for the abortion providers. What about the women (and men) who seek them?
culpfiction76: much lesser crime
Lacey: So, the person who initiates the "crime" is less culpable than the accomplice who simply has the safe means to assist them in commit ting it?
culpfiction76: yes, because the one that commits the abortion is in a disproportionate position of power and trust, and has no excuse of distress, hormones, depression, etc.

Lacey: So, if she's incapacitated due to physiological changes, and she can't make the decision to terminate a pregnancy... how is she competent to make the decision to carry the pregnancy to term?
culpfiction76: competent in what sense?
culpfiction76: the worst she can do is kill it, right?
Lacey: "has no excuse of distress, hormones, depression, etc." implies that the woman/man is incompetent to make the decision to terminate

culpfiction76: I'm saying that the person seeking an abortion is going to be characteristically desperate and disturbed.
culpfiction76: It makes more sense to harshly punish those that would take advantage of that than it does to punish the person
culpfiction76: I mean I think it should be a misdemeanor, don't get me wrong
Lacey: I'm not misunderstanding anything you're saying, trust me.

Lacey: But I have class in 7.5 hours.
Lacey: I need to get to bed.
Lacey: But, if you wanted to see those stats on Abortion risks, you should see http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/safety.html
culpfiction76: alright, goodnight

Disturbing, but Quite Telling, Comic of the Day

Dec 17, 2007
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As if, now 8 days before Christmas, one isn't tired of hearing the traditional holiday music and all of its permutations... I run across this Catholic.net comic strip. Umbert the Unborn--featured as part of the "Culture of Life."

It took me a until the 3rd frame to figure out what the 'artist' was doing--constructing an anti-choice Christmas carol!!!! How very clever! As a matter of fact, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer is one of the most beloved *childhood* Christmas songs of which I am aware; everyone knows the words, the tune, and the story-of-the-bullied-turned-leader concept that makes it so uplifting. It's a song that already boasts a host of parodies--why not add another?! Between the song, the cartoons, and (my favorite) the 1970s claymation classic, the carol is ubiquitous from Black Friday until December 26th. Some of us are even "fortunate" enough to be trapped in Christmas-time until the New Year.

However, the idea of a fetus driving the sleigh of a fictional character through sub-freezing temperatures is the least of Umbert's worries. The final frame gives us the *real* opinion of the anti-choice movement:

"...have a great life until birth!" (Emphasis and outrage mine)

Yes, baby Umbert--who will be protected from evil health care professionals by God-warriors who waste entire days of their lives screaming at women in front of health care offices, murdering physicians and nurses, fire-bombings of clinics, and other means of obstruction of social justice--we want you to have a fabulous and wonderful LIFE. We want you to enjoy your experience from conception...through implantation, embryogenesis, organ development, and then the descent through the birth canal. Then we really couldn't care less. You're born, your life has been protected....time to go soldiering on in front of Planned Parenthood. Speaking of soldiering...where will you be 18 years from now? We'll need you to pick up a Selective Service registration form--might have to send you off to kill some "Islamic Extremists" and their innocent neighbors in order to protect our right to be fabricated-Christian-doctrine Extremists.

Doesn't anyone understand that simply ensuring that a baby is born does absolutely nothing whatsoever for his or her life!? Barring unsuitable intrauterine conditions, inherited disorders, embryological problems, or premature birth, babies enjoy basically the same experience during gestation. Their lives are the same as everyone else's...until they're no longer attached to their mothers. Then, the determination of a "great" or a "poor" life can be made. Being born, while obviously necessary to have a life, is not the dictator of the quality of life. Being born to a poor, single mother with 3 children, however, is going to be an undeniable influence on quality of life, both immediately, and in the future. It seems not to matter to those who would gladly kill for the sake of a bundle of cells. They just want a birth to celebrate. They don't want to take any responsibility for the appropriate upbringing, health care, or other needs of a child who is born when he or she probably shouldn't have been.

Another concept often missed by the Anti-Choice Religious Right is this: not every child born is going to be a beautiful, white, straight, Christian. Some of them will be....black! Gay! Atheist! Buddhist! Progressive! *GASP!!* The Catholic responsible for the animation of Umbert readily ignores these facts. Umbert is, as far as we can tell, a well-developed, Caucasian male. His parents, as evidenced by past comics, are married and happy to be expecting. His father works and "takes care of [his] mother," which is another wonderful generalization that can be applied to Umbert's perceived socioeconomic class.... but few others'. One of his friends (how they can be in the same environment, let alone a spaceship, I don't know...ask the crazy people responsible!) is black, but seems to be in the same situation enjoyed by Umbert, and is only featured occasionally.

I guess the bottom line to this post is this: to all of my beloved anti-choice protesters, radically conservative activists, and those dedicated to manipulating your religious doctrine to support your own opinions of oppression toward women....

GOTCHA!!!! May the child you 'save' be a gay/lesbian, liberal agnostic, who votes in EVERY SINGLE ELECTION.