6 posts tagged “abortion”

This is the conversation I had tonight with a fanatical far-right anti-choicer who sent me the facebook message I quoted earlier this week.  You will notice several of the very popular anti-choice themes:  capital punishment, oppression of women, mistrust of women/paternalism, religious zealotry, and being dumb enough to argue a medical student about medical facts.  He obviously doesn't know that I am far superior in intelligence to him--or he never would have started with me.  Le sigh.  I just don't know how they live with themselves.

May the babies you "save" be athiest, gay, democrats!
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

culpfiction76: hi
Lacey: hi
culpfiction76: how are you?
Lacey: Stressed out and ready for the weekend
culpfiction76: I see
culpfiction76: did you get my facebook message?
Lacey: yes

culpfiction76: have you really changed that much?
culpfiction76: I was shocked
Lacey: Yeah, I came to my senses and realized it was no longer in my best interest to be a social conservative, particularly to be anti-choice.  Upon thinking for myself, I realized I'm actually quite libertarian, but with more liberal leanings.

culpfiction76: :-(
culpfiction76: I remember one time I mentioned something about how Ike Skelton wasn't so bad, and you'd like to have a fit
Lacey: It just didn't make sense to me that such a conservative district would maintain a democrat in office.
culpfiction76: well he's one of the 2 or 3 most conservative dems in the house
culpfiction76: I'd likely vote for him if I was in his district honestly'
Lacey: And I really liked the person who was running on the Republican ticket for our district that year

culpfiction76: you don't like abortion do you?
Lacey: No one "likes abortion"
Lacey: But I am pro-choice, from sex education on up to the legal limits of the procedure.
culpfiction76: oh goodness

Lacey: As far as my personal opinion, I don't know if I could ever have one, but women absolutely have a right to determine their reproductive destinies.
culpfiction76: like hell they do
culpfiction76: well scratch that
culpfiction76: they do, but it ends when they create a human being

culpfiction76: because at that point the exercise of that right involves the slaughter of an innocent child
Lacey: The definition of the beginning of human life is the most ambiguous opinion in the world.
Lacey: And it brings in religion >99% of the time for anti-choicers.
culpfiction76: only to democrats...because the ambiguity suits their sick agenda
Lacey: Not necessarily.  Let's not generalize here.
culpfiction76: Fine...pro-abortion democrats

Lacey: Pro-abortion is a gross misinterpretation of the pro-choice movement and of the goals of pro-choice activists.
culpfiction76: not even remotely
Lacey: No one ever WANTS to have an abortion, and pro-choicers would be happy if another abortion was never performed again.
Lacey: It's actually the goal of our activism.
Lacey: We want abortion providers to have less to do, because of a lack of unwanted pregnancy.
culpfiction76: that's so disingenuous.

Lacey: But anti-choice legislation and absitnence-only sex education, coupled with crippling access to birth control, emergency contraception, and medically accurate information about sexuality robs many people of their ability to be proactive about their reproductive lives.
culpfiction76: pro-choice is a lie.  It's a meaningless term applied because stating what you're actually for establishes very clearly the barbarity of the proposition on its face.
Lacey: Pro-life is a lie.
Lacey: The "life" you want to save is an indistinguishable bundle of cells.
Lacey: The lives you disregard are those of the mother, any of her existing children, and her family members.

Lacey: over 10% of all conceptions end before a woman would even take a positive pregnancy test
culpfiction76: How do I disregard those lives?  I disregard their convenience, perhaps, which the mother by all rights has forfeited.
Lacey: Just the mother?
Lacey: Now you're just oppressing women because they happen to be the child-bearers.
culpfiction76: You're oppressing men.

Lacey: And they (women) are almost uniformly the burdened party when the "parents" are not together.
culpfiction76: Why doesn't the father get a choice in the matter?
Lacey: There is no way in hell I am oppressing men.
culpfiction76: You're stripping his rights as a father just because he's NOT the child-bearer
Lacey: He can have an opinion just like anyone else.
Lacey: The dynamics of the couple are their own issue--but he does not have the onus of being the decisional authority.
culpfiction76: and do absolutely nothing about that opinion if the mothers' dissents.

Lacey: If you're blaming the mother for getting pregnant and forfeiting her right to choose, shouldn't the same principle apply to the father (who was ALSO present at the conception)?  Shouldn't he lose all of his human rights because he had sex, too?
culpfiction76: yes
culpfiction76: Thus neither of them should be legally allowed to murder their child
culpfiction76: easy

Lacey: It's not murder
Lacey: It's not alive
culpfiction76: that's manifestly false
Lacey: How so?
Lacey: Explain to me how a zygote is alive.
culpfiction76: For one, any collection of cells or organ in your body is alive.  A fetus in particular has its own separate life and identity
culpfiction76: it has its own heartbeat at 18 days from conception in many cases from what I understand.
Lacey: So, we shouldn't excise tumors because they're living cells with a unique genome?
Lacey: Is that murder too?
Lacey: They develop their own circulatory systems.
culpfiction76: no.  The difference is that, left unmolested, those will not grow into a baby, then a child, then an adult, just like you and me.

Lacey: And you cannot legislate against abortion because it is a direct act of advocating a single religion over all others--which I'm pretty sure is not okay in the United States, based on that pesky Bill of Rights you law kids should be reading about.
culpfiction76: absolute bullcrap
Lacey: Um, I think not.
culpfiction76: That's like saying you can't legislate against robbery or murder for the same reason
culpfiction76: just a hollow and ridiculous argument
culpfiction76: which I wish you guys would drop just in the interests of saving a lot of needlessly wasted time
Lacey: I wish you guys would find something better to think about than controlling women.
culpfiction76: I wish you would think of something better to do than promoting the mass slaughter of the most innocent among us in the name of some abstract and contrived women's right.

Lacey: You, being a white, college educated male, will never understand the forces at work against women, even before we get pregnant.
Lacey: They're not people.
Lacey: You will never convince me of that.
Lacey: I do not advocate abortion.

culpfiction76: Why do you not advocate it?
Lacey: I advocate that people be allowed to make their own decisions about their lives.
Lacey: I am just as happy for the women who keep their babies, those who find adoptive parents, and I sympathize for the women who face the most difficult decision of termination.
Lacey: But it is not my role to tell anyone what to do with their own bodies.
Lacey: And neither of us are going to convince the other that we are right.
Lacey: I advocate for the prevention of unplanned pregnancy above all other things.
Lacey: I advocate, like many of your peers, delayed onset of sexual activity.
Lacey: But I am also realistic enough to understand that mistakes are made.

culpfiction76: and in most realms, people must live with their mistake.
Lacey: And that punishing two or more lives because of those mistakes is wrong.
culpfiction76: but in this, one of the most important areas, assumption of consequences is set aside for the sake of death
Lacey: Only if you define a fertilized egg to a 24 week fetus a life.
Lacey: which only an individual person can do.

Lacey: Those who consider that a life will not have an abortion.  Which is fine.
Lacey: Those who do not, will make their decision based on other criteria.
culpfiction76: Which, if it turns out that empirically it is a life, is murder, without any qualification
Lacey: Only by way of your definition.
culpfiction76: and history will define you as monsters

Lacey: God, if I'm not mistaken, has given mankind conscience and free will.
culpfiction76: yes...and by his grace, a state to check that free will where it egregiously infringes on that of others
Lacey: And, even in your sacred Catholic texts, conscience of the individual is the greatest authority for decision making and culpability. (Even over that of the Pope!)
culpfiction76: Hm
culpfiction76: You may be forgetting a certain factor by the name of God
Lacey: There is no free will in the embryo
culpfiction76: And don't mistake Catholics for relativists.
culpfiction76: We believe there is a right and a wrong
Lacey: As do I
Lacey: Our definitions are just grossly different.
culpfiction76: and thus that which is wrong is always wrong, regardless of what an individual may believe or wish to beleive

culpfiction76: Let me put it to you this way
Lacey: Oh you're going to dumb it down for me... that's rich!!
culpfiction76: Do you believe there is ever a situation (let's set aside cases of brain-dead births and that sort of thing for these purposes) in which abortion serves the greater good?
culpfiction76: That there is ever greater utility in it.
Lacey: Greater than carrying pregnancy to term, giving birth, etc?
culpfiction76: yes
Lacey: and we're only talking about conceptions that would be born "normal" and viable?
culpfiction76: yeah let's limit it to that for now
Lacey: Yes I do.  (I just wanted to make sure I understood the question)
Lacey: It saves your people tax dollars so they can give them back to the rich folk.
culpfiction76: but it takes away a potential taxpayer
culpfiction76: and an economic analysis is only one consideration
Lacey: and a potential solder.

culpfiction76: If you truly believe that a human life is worth less than the amount of tax money that may be required to provide for it, that's your unfortunate and I think eccentric opinion, I suppose.
Lacey: You keep forgetting that my definition of human life is not the same as yours.
Lacey: Which is what the entire argument is based upon.
culpfiction76: I'm talking about the hypothetical fetus carried to term and born
culpfiction76: when it might otherwise have been aborted
Lacey: But it only applies if it happens.
culpfiction76: no it doesn't
culpfiction76: we're making the utilitarian argument based on the utility of either having an abortion prior to birth or in carrying it to term
culpfiction76: so whether it's a life at that point already is irrelevant

Lacey: I think it's based on the circumstances of the involved parties
Lacey: If it means they're sinking lower into poverty and will not be able to adequately feed/clothe/shelter themselves and any existing children or other dependents, it is absolutely more useful to abort a pregnancy.
culpfiction76: Ok pause right there
Lacey: But upon completion of the procedure all women should be offered long term birth control to prevent repeat scenarios
culpfiction76: Can we agree that adoption is always an alternative to letting the child deepen one's poverty?
Lacey: No
Lacey: Adoption is great
Lacey: if you can guarantee timely and secure placement with a parent
culpfiction76: irelevant for this part of the discussion
Lacey: Which is absolutely not the case

culpfiction76: You raised an argument for the parents' perspective
Lacey: You can't selectively make inconvenient facts irrelevant!!
culpfiction76: No we can address it in turn
culpfiction76: but it's irrelevant to theparticular  point being discussed
culpfiction76: If a mother will be irreparably harmed economically by keeping a baby she's carried to term, giving that child up for adoption is a viable alternative in every case, yes?
Lacey: In terms of immediate cessation of the problem, I think it would apply to most cases.  It effectively makes the baby "disappear" from her life.
Lacey: So if we
Lacey: *if we're only going for parental perspective...

culpfiction76: Okay.  So the maximum required utility cost for the mother is 9 months of pregnancy, right?
culpfiction76: If she chooses to invest more than that, it's because obviously she sees additional utility in doing so.
Lacey: And all that's involved with those 9 months.
culpfiction76: Ok...I think we have an accord on that then
Lacey: Discrimination, loss of productivity/wages for prenatal care, increased health care costs, possible health complications...
culpfiction76: Ok let's address those concerns then

culpfiction76: Let's remember that our analysis begins after conception.
culpfiction76: Now I'm not a doctor...but I believe the health risks of abortion are at least equivalent to that of a full-term pregnancy.
culpfiction76: Would you take issue with that statement?
Lacey: Yes I would.
Lacey: Surgical abortion (at the present standard of care reached in the 80s after Roe v. Wade) is one of the safest surgical procedures anyone can have.
culpfiction76: Ok.  Since I doubt either of us have the relevant facts handy to prove that one way or another, let's leave that open as a question of fact.
culpfiction76: I've heard of a lot of women receiving nerve damage, inadvertant sterility, and death from legal abortions even in very recent times.
culpfiction76: But we'll consult the stats on that later if necessary
Lacey: Later is better than right now. 

culpfiction76: Okay so that leaves discrimination, real economic loss during pregnancy, and health costs.
culpfiction76: I'll concede those all as at least potential unmitigated utility costs.
Lacey: remembering that low-income and uninsured women are more likely to face unplanned pregnancy because of prohibitive cost of birth control, and would face the highest costs related to an unplanned pregnancy.
Lacey: ...which is anywhere from 6,000-12,000 dollars, depending on delivery style, location, and of course, insurance coverage.
culpfiction76: Okay
culpfiction76: So you've got significant economic loss (which could be mitigated by bankruptcy protection if necessary) as the gross utility cost.
culpfiction76: and also possible health risks
culpfiction76: adequate summary?
Lacey: I suppose it's acceptable for now.
culpfiction76: ok

culpfiction76: And the positive utility would be essentially the birth of a human being
culpfiction76: which includes all the potentials and liabilities inherent in such a birth
Lacey: which are infinite (in either direction) and unknown at the time of birth
Lacey: But you cannot argue based on that--prevention of a future that is not a measurable entity
culpfiction76: well just like the health concern debate, you'd have to look at stats
Lacey: stats about what?  What proportion of people die before each milestone is reached?
Lacey: How many have accidental deaths?
Lacey: How many babies grow up to be criminals, drug addicts, antisocials, terrorists?
culpfiction76: right
Lacey: Interesting thought.

culpfiction76: also economic concerns...that child's potential to reproduce
culpfiction76: and the child's potential to be something good as opposed to a criminal etc
Lacey: okay...
culpfiction76: I submit that the vast majority of children would amount to enough in his or her life to make up the medical costs inherent in the birth
Lacey: But each birth isn't of "the vast majority of children"
Lacey: I think if the child is wanted, you are absolutely correct.

Lacey: That's why we reproduce.
Lacey: because we are willing to risk our lives (literally) with that expectation for our wanted children--that they will "amount to enough" to counterbalance the risks and cost associated with their birth.
culpfiction76: well even a child born into ideal circumstance can fail to live up to his birth costs
Lacey: I agree
Lacey: But both the costs and the "worth" of the child are determined on a highly sensitive individual basis (i.e., a child with Down Syndrome).
culpfiction76: right

culpfiction76: and so why do you feel that one woman should have absolute power to snuff out both the utilities and the liabilities when they ultimately affect many individual people and society at large?
Lacey: Because I trust her.  I trust that her decision will be the best one for herself, her family, and HER FUTURE, which was not a part of this particular argument.
Lacey: The impact on society is minimal at the very most.
Lacey: She, as an individual with decision-making capacity and competence as a human being, is autonomous to make decisions about her own medical care.

culpfiction76: Well I hope you at least see how we can legislate this from a social utility perspective putting value on various competing concerns, without legislating religious values (which I think is completely fine in its own right, btw)
Lacey: Even if you attempt to do it that way, it is ineffective.
Lacey: Because if you banned abortion, illegal procedures would still occur, tipping the "liabilities" side of the scale due to a drastic increase in death, infections, loss of reproductive ability, and other morbidities/costs

culpfiction76: that's why you impose the death penalty for those convicted of committing an abortion
culpfiction76: I don't think you'd find too many people risking it
Lacey: wow--so..... kill 2 people for the price of one?
culpfiction76: same thing they do to murderers, yeah
culpfiction76: deterrence
culpfiction76: and retributivism

Lacey: So you want the death penalty for the abortion providers.  What about the women (and men) who seek them?
culpfiction76: much lesser crime
Lacey: So, the person who initiates the "crime" is less culpable than the accomplice who simply has the safe means to assist them in commit ting it?
culpfiction76: yes, because the one that commits the abortion is in a disproportionate position of power and trust, and has no excuse of distress, hormones, depression, etc.

Lacey: So, if she's incapacitated due to physiological changes, and she can't make the decision to terminate a pregnancy... how is she competent to make the decision to carry the pregnancy to term?
culpfiction76: competent in what sense?
culpfiction76: the worst she can do is kill it, right?
Lacey: "has no excuse of distress, hormones, depression, etc."  implies that the woman/man is incompetent to make the decision to terminate

culpfiction76: I'm saying that the person seeking an abortion is going to be characteristically desperate and disturbed.
culpfiction76: It makes more sense to harshly punish those that would take advantage of that than it does to punish the person
culpfiction76: I mean I think it should be a misdemeanor, don't get me wrong
Lacey: I'm not misunderstanding anything you're saying, trust me.

Lacey: But I have class in 7.5 hours.
Lacey: I need to get to bed.
Lacey: But, if you wanted to see those stats on Abortion risks, you should see http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/safety.html
culpfiction76: alright, goodnight

Comment on Feministing today, about an article in the Kansas City Star.

" As a native of Missouri, I am horrifically embarrassed by the current governor. I find it fitting that, even in the wake of his Abortion Task Force, both this judgment that female inmates retainin their right to control their reproductive destiny *and* the 35th anniversary of the Roe v Wade decision fell on the same day he made his YouTube statement about his impending doom--errr, I mean, retirement.

My beloved and greatly missed alma mater, the University of Missouri-Columbia, has a rapidly growing and incredibly dynamic Women's and Gender Studies department; some of the most fantastic students I had the pleasure to meet while I was in Columbia were involved with the department, either in classes, or through student organizations.

Anyway--I'm visiting Feministing, my favorite Feminism News, Politics, and Fodder resource this evening (instead of studying the nasty nasty intestines) and I see this!!!!     Stop Traffic Now Fashion Show

Well, the bill I wrote five e-mails about on Sunday (i.e., the one cited in my last post) passed the Missouri House yesterday.

Shit.

Now it's moving to the Senate, where its fraternal twin is already being considered.  And I know I can't count on my senator (Delbert Scott-R, Senate District 28) to stand up for me, just like I couldn't count on Representative Wilson to stand up for me.  Honestly, I can't count on 98% of my home district for either house to stand up for me.  That is a saddening, hollow feeling.  And one of the only comforts I used to have was knowing that a small group of people who *would* stand up for me, and my health, and my rights was just a 30 minute drive away.  That might all change by the end of the week.

Planned Parenthood is in grave danger in Missouri.  So are women's rights.

Shit.

Dear [ Decision Maker ],

As one of the majority of Missourians who value prevention over dangerous health care restrictions, I urge you to oppose HCS for HB 1055.

This omnibus bill combines many dangerous initiatives that will cut access to family planning services, medically accurate information about contraception in schools and will close clinics leaving only one abortion facility in Missouri.

Worse, the bill will do nothing to prevent unintended pregnancy -- the common-sense policy solution to reducing abortion.  I cannot understand why the Missouri legislature would spend time and tax dollars debating bills that do nothing to reduce the need for abortion when there are sensible solutions that are being ignored.

Closing abortion providing clinics will have little or no effect on the number of abortions performed--it will simply make them harder for women to access, and result in more procedures performed later into the pregnancy.  Just as before Roe v. Wade, women may have to resort to unproven, unsafe procedures to end their pregnancies.

The abortion debate can be eliminated by simply taking action to prevent unintended pregnancies by ensuring that proper, factual information about family planning, safer sex practices, and contraception are readily available to any and all patients (male and female) who need or request them.  Preventive care is an essential part of preventing unintended pregnancies, and should be the focus of everyone in the state of Missouri--pro-choice and otherwise. 

The restrictions placed on sexual information and family planning that are currently in place are not proving effective.  One of the greatest features of our government is that it allows the people to effect change in the law when they find that it is not working in the way they initially intended.  This omnibus bill is moving in the wrong direction; it is robbing a very real issue, and those who are faced with it, of the resources required to help solve the problem of unintended pregnancies. 

I urge you and your colleagues, whether pro-choice or pro-life, to help the state of Missouri by helping us make every child a wanted child.  I urge you to dismiss this dangerous bill and to put into place common sense legislation that will be effective in reducing the annual number of abortions performed by providing the citizens of Missouri with the information they need to preserve their health and prevent unintended pregnancies.

Sincerely,
Me

***THE MISSOURI GENERAL ASSEMBLY IS DEBATING A VERY DANGEROUS INITIATIVE THAT MAY PASS AS EARLY AS TOMORROW!!!!  IT WILL CLOSE WOMEN'S HEALTH CLINICS, LEAVING ONLY ONE ABORTION PROVIDING CLINIC IN THE ENTIRE STATE!!!  IT PREVENTS COMPREHENSIVE SEXUAL EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS, AND BANS PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS FROM PUBLIC SCHOOL PROPERTY!  PLEASE WRITE YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND LET HIM/HER KNOW THAT YOU WANT PREVENTIVE CARE, AND THAT INEFFECTIVE POLICIES SHOULD BE CHANGED TO SUIT THE NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE!***

You may never need the protection that this bill eliminates, but your sister, cousin, neighbor, mother, aunt, or best friend might need it tomorrow.  Please keep that in mind--and help us continue to the fight for women's right to make her own medical decisions.

I posted this as a comment on Melissa's amazing post about conscience clauses provided for physicians as a "moral safeguard" against performing abortions, if they are opposed to the practice.  You can read it here:  Melissa's Post

You and I are incredibly like-minded on this subject, so you know that I agree with you on the entirety of this post.

I think that the choice NOT to have an abortion is just as valid as the choice to undergo the procedure, and that no one should ever be forced or coerced into either decision.  Millions of women choose NOT to have an abortion every year--I have the utmost respect for those women, their choices, and their commitment to raising the child in question.

However, the women who make the choice to terminate a pregnancy are often doing so to benefit many people OTHER than themselves:  a financially burdened family, several children who are already suffering in a single-parent household, or a loved one who has fallen ill and needs personal care on a daily basis.  These women don't need judgment, especially by all of us other "corrupt" sinning Christians--they need support.  Abortion as birth control is a myth.  Freely-accessible birth control (that isn't abstinence, which isn't actually birth control, but a practice) that is safe for everyone, easy to use, and 100% effective.... is also a myth. 

While I believe that abortion should be available and safe, I also hope that it will become rare, if not completely obsolete.  However, the Victorian attitude that our society has placed upon sex ("Sex is a filthy activity--so save it for someone you love!"), and the unwillingness for select religious/conservative/etc. groups to allow for open, comprehensive dialogue on the subjects of sexuality and sexual expression, birth control, and STI prevention have landed us where we are today.  We have a long way to go before we can prevent all the unwanted and dangerous pregnancies that end in abortion. 

And, yes, I am totally on board to staff the Women's Hospital with you. :)

In all reality, until insurance companies are "required" to cover Ortho Tri-Cyclen AS WELL AS Viagra,  children who are taught sex-ed at school (instead of by their parents) are taught how to use a condom, a pill or a ring, without the insistence that anything other than abstinence guarantees AIDS and death,  and women are given the same status as a human being as the man who impregnates her and takes off... My pro-choice brethren and I will have our work cut out for us.

On the topic of Physician-Assisted Suicide:  I side with the Oregon legislature on this one.  I think it should be available (only to physicians who are recognized by the state board of medicine, and who are not subject to conscience clauses), but should have stringent steps and guidelines that are overseen by several people throughout the process.  You can read the statute here:  Death With Dignity Act  I am a staunch supporter of withdrawal of life-support, when authorized by power of attorney or advanced directives, and informed refusal of treatment, but only by a patient who is competent and voluntarily requests such conditions.  These are extensions of the autonomy that each human being deserves, and should be provided as a patient.  Suicide attempts by "traditional methods" fail all the time, and death from cancer can ravage the human body relentlessly for months.  I walk a fine line on this subject because I believe that suicide, in the majority of the population, is horrendously selfish; a fellow Mizzou student jumped off a dorm balcony about 18 months ago, and I couldn't imagine what could make someone want to die in such circumstances, at such a young age.  Having witnessed the death of my grandfather from stomach/esophageal/liver cancer, and the deterioration of my grandmother's total body muscle mass over the last 15 years, I can imagine how an unrelenting force completely out of one's own control could make a person want to control their own death by deciding how much pain he or she is willing to bear, while death is unquestionably near.  Dying on one's own terms, in comfort and without fear, is something, in my humble opinion, that terminally ill patients should be able to choose.

[Insert concise conclusion here.]

Yeah, I was always the "most heartless person in the room" during my Medical Ethics course.  I don't expect for everyone to agree with me, but I just want my side to be heard, and my reasoning to be understood.